Shontavia Johnson (00:04):

What’s up everybody. I’m Shontavia Johnson and this is another episode of The Shontavia Show, where I want to inspire you to build a brand, business and life that you love. It’s Thursday ya’ll and you know what I like to do on Thursday. I’d love to hear from you with questions about building your personal brand and reputation, starting businesses or figuring out how to connect all of your expertise to the work that you want to do now or in the future.

Shontavia Johnson (00:31):

If you have a question that you’d like to hear from me about, reach out to me askshontavia@gmail.com — that’s askshontavia@gmail.com. So I’m excited to have Nichole Hayden here with me today. I got an awesome question from a new lawyer, a lawyer who’s just starting at a law firm and she has a question about being in the firm, and I thought since Nichole was here with me interviewing for a different episode that we could spend a little time answering this question together. Nichole Hayden is a partner at Nelson Mullins Riley and Scarborough where she practices intellectual property law. Nichole and I worked at the same law firm about how many years?

Nichole Hayden (01:20):

How many years? At least 10. I don’t know…

Shontavia Johnson (01:22):

10 or 15 some years ago. I used to look at Nichole and think, wow, she’s a phenomenal lawyer and here I am struggling my way through. So I’m excited that she’s here to hell answer this question because I don’t know that I was that great of a new associate but Nichole was, you are phenomenal example.

Nichole Hayden (01:40):

Thank you. You are being too hard on yourself.

Shontavia Johnson (01:44):

Well anyway, we’re going to answer, well Nichole is going to help me answer this question because this is advice I probably could have used back 10 or 15 years ago, whatever it was.

Shontavia Johnson (01:54):

Alright, so good afternoon. I hope my email finds you well. I’ve been following you on social media and subscribe to The Shontavia Show on iTunes and I thought I would reach out. It is so good to listen to and I get such great advice. I just joined a bigger law firm in the Midwest working in the IP field, mostly patent prosecution. I was just wondering, two questions. Number one, how important is it to build a brand or a reputation as an associate? And then number two, how to go about doing that and standing out in a law firm setting. Thank you so much. And I don’t know if this person wants me to use her name or not, so I’ll give her a fake name. Rachel. So let’s talk to Rachel about being a new lawyer and a new firm. And obviously this will translate to lots of different industries, but what do you think about that building a reputation as a new associate?

Nichole Hayden (02:49):

So important. There’s, I mean there’s nothing more important for your career. And I think first impressions mean a lot, and I don’t mean the first time you meet somebody, but the first part of your career can set the tone for your career. And so I think…

Shontavia Johnson (03:04):

What do you think that is? Can you explore that a little? Why do you think that impression sets the tone for your career?

Nichole Hayden (03:09):

I do. I just think it’s human nature a little bit. I think when somebody has a really good experience with you right from the outset, they’re willing to invest in you and they’re willing to continue to bring you up with them. And on the same tone, if they, you know, have a bad experience with you, they, they may not be willing to invest as much time. So I think from a progression standpoint it’s important. I also think from a longterm standpoint, marketing, like you want to have your colleagues, you know, we were colleagues and look at how many times our paths have crossed in the interim. So you want your colleagues to have a good impression of you right from the start because you don’t know where they’re going to end up in life. And those colleagues may present opportunities like this where you’re interviewing for a podcast or they may become your clients. You just don’t know. You never really know.

Shontavia Johnson (04:00):

No, I love that point. And that’s why I want it to stop there because the world is so small in the legal community. I mean, I don’t care how many lawyers there are in America. It feels like within three steps I could probably connect with just about anybody. So even like with Nichole, Nichole and I started working, well, I started working at the same firm as Nichole when I was a new associate and she was the graduate of a law school that two years later I would be interviewing for a job at, and ended up getting that job in part because of your recommendation. So thank you, 15 years later for that. And it just really, you just never know. You don’t know when paths will cross. I’ve been all around the country and frankly the planet and there’s always some random connection that gets me. So it is important to start as a new associate in a firm or a new employee, wherever, building that brand and building that reputation.

Nichole Hayden (04:58):

Right, right.

Shontavia Johnson (04:59):

So how do you suggest Rachel do this in a law firm environment? What can she do?

Nichole Hayden (05:04):

Yeah, I think I think you want to be the one that’s dependable, right? The one that you’re going to do, you’re going to create the work product that is, you know, good work product, but you’re going to deliver it on time. You’re going to be consistent, you’re going to, you’re going to be available. But I’m not saying like sacrifice your personal life for availability, but, but you’re going to be able to be the dependable one. And that’s what, you know as a partner now I look for is somebody that can turn something in on time that’s going to do a good job substantively, and that I can depend on not only to do the work, but also to take visiting, to visit a client and put in front of a client, to have a conversation with a client that’s professional and appropriate and that sort of thing.

Shontavia Johnson (05:49):

So, so can I ask you a couple of things about that? So you mentioned being dependable, turning things in on time. What happens if you get yourself in a position where maybe you can’t turn something in on time or where you do make a mistake or two? How can a new person in a firm or wherever, but in particularly a firm for Rachel here, what can she do or what should young associates do in that instance? Be honest, up front kind of thing.

Nichole Hayden (06:18):

Communication–Cannot underemphasize communication. The worst is to have a deadline and then not hear from that associate and that deadline comes and goes. If you’re not going to make the deadline, communicate, communicate why, what’s going on. This is taking longer than it should have. I ran into an issue that I didn’t realize was going to be there. It’s understandable like you know, the deadlines in some cases are meldable, you know? So it’s understandable sometimes if you’re not going to meet a deadline, but communicate, just communicate. It’s easy,

Shontavia Johnson (06:52):

Especially with IP and patent prosecution because you live and die by the deadline, right? So it’s important to hear from a person about those things. Other suggestions? When you’re a new associate, how you can start to build the right kind of reputation or stand out.

Nichole Hayden (07:11):

For, for longterm I say, you know, make connections with your colleagues, with not just your colleagues in your law firm with some, you know, if, if you’ve got minority groups you can get involved with women’s groups you can get involved with any sort of practice group groups that you can get involved with, you know, IP lawyers or maybe just a certain technology group that you know, that is focused on tech women in technology or something along those lines. Those are the people that when you make those connections, they’re going to spread out all over the world and that’s, and that’s going to be and stick with it. Right? Stick with those connections. Follow up with people every once in awhile. Keep in touch with your college friends, keep in touch with your law school friends, those connections last forever.

Shontavia Johnson (08:00):

Very smart, I needed that advice.

Nichole Hayden (08:05):

Hard advice because that takes a lot of time too.

Shontavia Johnson (08:07):

It is, and social media kind of makes you feel like, Oh I don’t need to do that. But you do. It is really quite important. How can new associates network within a firm? Like do you go around and knock on everybody’s door and introduce yourself? Do you go to all the networking opportunities outside of work? You mentioned like not sacrificing your personal life, but law firms are notorious for asking you sometimes to sacrifice your personal life. So how do you balance the “do really good work” versus the building relationships with your colleagues internally?

Nichole Hayden (08:41):

Yeah, and I think some of that is based on the type of work that you do. I mean, you can build a reputation based on your work product without ever going to a social event. And that works for some people. For other people going to those social events is where they build their reputation. And that works for some people as well. I mean, if you can balance them both, then great. But there are a lot of lawyers that are really good on the marketing end and they focus on the marketing end and, and that’s sort of their, they draw the work in and find other people to do the work. And that works in a certain model. You know, and it completely depends on your personal situation. I think I was very traditional, went to law school right after college. You know, early in my career I had the time to do all of those social things, right? I had the, I had the time to go to every charity event and to sit at every table that the firm sponsored and that sort of thing. Now it’s a little bit more difficult because of you know, kids and life and sports and all of that stuff. So I think accepting that your, your career path is going to kind of move in waves. At least for me it has. And I think for a lot of women it does. You’re not necessarily always going to be on a straight upward trajectory, but as long as you’re sort of continuing on the path and understanding that that path is going to be variable.

Shontavia Johnson (10:01):

No, I love it. All right, so if you are comfortable answering this question, so you mentioned your trajectory looking, I’m doing this for the podcast listeners, I’m moving my hands up and down. What was your trajectory, what did your path look like and how did you keep a great brand and reputation doing that?

Nichole Hayden (10:20):

Right. So when I had my first child, I was in my fourth year, I think. And at that point in time I took a step back and went to 85%. My law firm allowed us to do certain percentages. And so I was basically still working full time. I was still doing, you know, close to 40 hours a week, but I didn’t have to do nights and weekends and I got to do the home stuff that I wanted to do and have time for exercise and personal life and that sort of thing. And then when I went in-house, I was back to full time, so I was back on another because I felt like that was a whole, like there was no option to do a reduced schedule. When you’re in house, you’re in or you’re out

Shontavia Johnson (11:05):

In house at a tech startup.

Nichole Hayden (11:07):

Yeah. Right. And so but it was so exciting and it was so fun and it was, it was so different and I was getting so many new challenges thrown at me. And so that was sort of like a little bit of an uphill. And then when I came out of that, I came back into the law firm and I went even more reduced than I was before. So I went down to 75% and I kind of stayed at 75% and then just made partner this year. So it’s, it’s a lot of up and down, but you just kind of have to go with what works for you and your family. And you know, this whole work life balance concept is it’s difficult to figure out. It’s difficult to achieve, but I think some of it is just being able to turn off when it’s time to turn off, right. Mentally. Like at the end of the day, whatever that end of the day is, whether that’s five o’clock or three o’clock or eight o’clock, being able to actually turn off and focus on the people around you, the people that you’re supposed to be with at that point in time. Yeah. I think that’s just part of the important part. Yeah.

Shontavia Johnson (12:07):

Great advice. But you maintain that good reputation even by doing good work.

Nichole Hayden (12:15):

As long as you’re engaged, as long as you’re, you know, present and there and available for, you know, and, I’m pretty good about being available during the hours I’m available, but people also know that there are certain hours that I’m not available and and, and they sort of accept that and I’ll get back to them as soon as I can, but not at the sacrifice of…

Shontavia Johnson (12:35):

Everything else.

Nichole Hayden (12:36):

Yeah.

Shontavia Johnson (12:37):

So do you think that’s ever hurt you, the not being available at midnight or 2:00 AM or whatever, has that ever had a negative impact on your work or your career trajectory?

Nichole Hayden (12:50):

I am sure that it has on a micro level, but not on a level that I felt. So I am sure that there are some people that maybe wouldn’t want to work with me because I’m not available at nine o’clock at night. And that’s okay because there are a lot of people that do, so. Yeah.

Shontavia Johnson (13:08):

And do you want to always be available at nine o’clock?

Nichole Hayden (13:11):

I don’t right now.

Shontavia Johnson (13:13):

I also think that’s good advice for a young woman starting in a mid sized or bigger law firm, because the brand that you create is the, I mean that is what you’ll have to maintain, rght? And so if you’re available at 2:00 AM then you consistently probably will be available at 2:00 AM. And that’s not a sustainable model for a lot of people.

Nichole Hayden (13:36):

And it’s difficult to change that. Once you’ve created that situation it’s difficult to step back and say, Hey, I’m no longer going to be available at 2:00 AM when you’ve been available at 2:00 AM for the last two years.

Shontavia Johnson (13:47):

So do you have any other advice for like a new associate just starting in a mid size to larger firm? Are there other things this person should be doing or could be doing, going out and seeking work or, or any other things, as this person is figuring out how to build a brand internally, how to create the right reputation?

Nichole Hayden (14:07):

You know, there may be things market-based, you know, she said she’s in the Midwest, so I don’t know if she’s in a big town or a small town or a big city or what the case may be or if it’s even a woman. I don’t even know that. Well you did say her name was Rachel.

Shontavia Johnson (14:22):

She is a woman but her name is a fake name.

Nichole Hayden (14:26):

So I think it depends on the size of the market. So if you’re in a really big market getting out and like going knocking on doors to get business at, at that stage of your career is probably not going to happen.

Speaker 1 (14:39):

I think you, you got to look at the 10 year plan, not the two year plan when you’re starting out and building those relationships with your contemporaries that are going to eventually be the decision makers is the important part.

Shontavia Johnson (14:52):

Oh, building relationships with your contemporaries who will ultimately be the decision makers. That is great advice. Thank you for that, Nichole. That is a good note to end on. Unless you had other insights you wanted to share. Alright you guys, thank you so much for listening. I hope, Rachel, that this advice, this advice helped you and resonated with you as you start your career at your law firm. For everybody else, I hope you can take some of these lessons and translate them into whatever field, industry or place you are in. If you have additional comments or questions, if you agree or disagree, please reach out to me. It askshontavia@gmail.com I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks so much. Alright.